Имхо, очень интересная веточка...
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:30:31 +0100
From: "Flemming ...
2007/2/13, Agnes Araujo <email@example.com>:
> And finally, in his article Flemming conveys the idea that CBRs Bridge ends
> at OT 16 which shocked me. That Bridge goes up to OT 52! Someone in Paris
> can tell him all about it. I'm not quite sure how to deal with a certain
> irreverence he conveys in his article, except to say that I wish he would
> emulate the virtue for which the French are renowned: courtesy. Flemming,
> you did it again! :-))
I did what, being irreverent? :-) It is likely to happen again.
Thank you for the offer of getting better informed, but that is not
necessarily the problem. I was well trained by Captain Bill, in
delivering these levels, Super Static C/S, Upper Level Review, etc,
and I was a member of the Qual Review Board of Ron's Org. And I did
the levels myself with Bill as C/S.
And I'm well aware that there are more levels after that. But for me,
the initial outline was what stuck, the idea that you'd be caseless at
that point. And, indeed, I had audited out or as-ised, or whatever
you'd call it, any impulse or need for doing any kind of next level. I
could see for myself, and was no longer willing to accept somebody
else's stuff as my next level.
I did a few extra steps after that, Games Master Course, Games Basics,
Games Series. Which essentially would make me OT40.
But the numbering sort of went haywire there, as the chart shows a
number of OT levels which essentially would be OT projects one would
go and do in one's own time, but which one doesn't have to. So,
essentially one goes from OT16 to OT40 in a few weeks, right after
OT16, by doing the steps on those 3 rundowns. At the risk of sounding
more irreverent, that's a bit too much inflation for me in the
numbers, so I've never walked around saying that I'm OT40.
And then there are some other levels after that, which normally aren't
numbered as OT levels. VAST, etc. And I do have good friends who tell
me that that's where things really get interesting and relevant, and
that I should go do them.
But, as I said, I've run out whatever it was that would motivate me to
do so, and couldn't find it again, even if I tried. Which isn't a bad
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:50:10 +0100
From: "Flemming ...
2007/2/14, Agnes Araujo <firstname.lastname@example.org>:
> Thank you for a very informative and interesting posting. I had no idea you
> had knocked about with Captain Bill and were trained by him! What was that
Oh, never boring.
Bill was certainly a colorful and bigger-than-life character, a big
being for sure.
I met him the first time around 1980 when I was staff in DK org. Then,
in 1981, a series of strange declare orders arrived in everybody's
in-baskets, on Bill and a long series of other people. Interesting in
that it was well-known old timers, many ClassVIII and ClassXIIs. And
interesting because several of these SP declares presented as their
crime that they claimed being members of the Galactic Patrol, and for
Bill, the crime of distributing socalled "Sector Operation Bulletins",
and trying to carry out a coup against church management. All of which
only made me want to join whatever that Galactic Patrol thing might
In 1983 Bill became active on the outside, and called together some OT
Committee meetings in various places, one of the first being in
Marbella, Spain, and I went to that, together with a few other rebels
from Denmark. The church sent in people too, to create trouble. But
there's nothing like hearing Bill yell "HCO Bring Order!", and seeing
a kicking and screaming church agent being dragged out the room.
It was some years later, after I had moved to the US that I got
involved in the Ron's Org activities. But then I came over a number of
times, for a few weeks at a time to study with him, and go to the
conferences. First he was located around Frankfurt, Germany, and later
Bill had a particular way of carrying out the trainings. You weren't
in a course room with a supervisor. Usually there were only a few
people there at a time, so you would essentially get very personal
attention. Meaning, he would drop by on his motorcycle, and you would
spend hours talking one-on-one with him. Which was always
Despite that Bill wasn't exactly a person one could argue with, he was
quite open to discussing any kind of question or concern one might
have, or its philosophical implications. And he was of course full of
I saw him the last time in December 1990, a few months before he died.
We drove down to Andorra from Paris after a Ron's Org conference
there, and I stayed a few weeks. I forgot what I did, Games Master
Course and the FEBC, I think. I still clearly remember him playing his
music for me in the studio in his condo, and explaining the background
of it. He was very fond of composing music.
I'm sure you've read his eulogy, which appeared in iVy, and which is here:
But you probably hadn't guessed that I wrote it.
I had a number of disagreements with Bill's tech, and I still do, and
there are various things about Scientology and upper levels and
stories about what is going on in the universe that I take with a
grain of salt, and which I might have alternate opinions on. But none
of that has lessened my respect for Captain Bill.
From: Pierre Ethier Class XII
Subject: Re: [IVy-subs-1] Re: IVy 80
To: Flemming ...
I would like to clarify that no Class XII ever
endorsed or became a member of Robertson Galactic
Certainly a number of Class XIIs were declared in
1981-2 (Murray Chopping, Brian Livingston, David and
Merrill Mayo, Leon Steinberg, Ron Shaffran, Gwen
North, Alex Sibersky) also Kerry Gleeson (Class X)
Vicki Livingston, Frank Freeman, Craig Defan (original
Class VIIIs), but it had to do with opposing the new
leadership, and nothing to do with Robertson's views
or Galactic patrol. No Class XII has ever endorsed
Robertson's technical writings.
I know the actual circumstances and details of each
one of the XIIs leaving the Church. If anyone has any
questions they can email me.
From: "Flemming ....
Subject: Re: [IVy-subs-1] Re: IVy 80
> Certainly a number of Class XIIs were declared in
> 1981-2 (Murray Chopping, Brian Livingston, David and
> Merrill Mayo, Leon Steinberg, Ron Shaffran, Gwen
> North, Alex Sibersky) also Kerry Gleeson (Class X)
> Vicki Livingston, Frank Freeman, Craig Defan (original
> Class VIIIs), but it had to do with opposing the new
> leadership, and nothing to do with Robertson's views
> or Galactic patrol. No Class XII has ever endorsed
> Robertson's technical writings.
Alex Sibersky and Leon Steinberg were the ones I particularly remember
being associated with Bill's revolutionary plot in their declare
orders. But I don't know their personal stories, and they certainly
didn't seem to have any connection with each other after that point.
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:06:25 +0100
From: Luca ....
I remember meeting Captain Bill a couple of times; the first at AOSHDK
in the early 70s.
I do not remember why he was there, but I remember a lecture he did to
the SHSBC classes about that beautiful process of COHA which is usually
called "black and white" (turning black spots into white ones). I loved
a lot that process.
So having such big point of reality with him I came to like him (Captain
Then I met him personally in 73 or 74 during a mission of him, with Jone
Chiriasi (who was a good friend of mine) as helper, on a crazy project
to turn ALL scientology staff and public into sea org members.
A colonization enterprise wanting to outclass the conquest of the
Americas by Spaniards and Englishmen, but more like "The mouse that
roared" by Peter Seller.
I brought then to full completion a personal project which I began in
between 69 and 70 of TRs performance.
In the SHSBC they called me "do_you_want_trs" as nickname, because I was
using all my free time to do TRs and therefore I was always looking for
Seeing the havoc that registrars were causing for the sake of statistics
in the public (and on my personal peace of spirit and quality of life),
I conceived the idea that if you can handle a registrar without ARC
breaks, and stay on your position without being "handled", you have the
best test for yours TRs.
I was a temporary tech staff in Paris Org then, so it came my turn to be
approached by him with the declared intent turn me into a Sea Org
member, which I had no intention to.
He used all his panoply of tricks because he felt challenged on his
"power" (a personality's feature I found on many Ls completions).
But I was challenged on my personal freedom on the other side :-), a
very very basic facility of my life which I resent a lot being touched on.
I remember he used first all the usual and eventually the nastiest
registrar's trick of giving you a listing question such as "Why aren't
you willing to?" or "what reasons would stop you from...?", and I
remember how glad I was to "handle his origin" by plainly answer: "This
is your listing question, not mine. I have no item for it because it
doesn't read for me. So why should I go into an out list to please you?
it's a dead horse". "You tell me something which is valid for me in my
In ARC obviously, not with natter, and with great fun.
I don't know how many times I answered "I have no answers for it" and
"That's your purpose, I feel already fully on purpose on a theta purpose
And he conceded that it was right and eventually let go of it.
I remember later at Saint Hill UK the mission of Siborky (?) or whatever
his name was, god help him, who disrupted with the battle of England
AOSHUK, a place of tech running smoothly and in ARC and giving products,
into a wreck; he corrupted by force very nice terminals, and turned
them, by forced overts towards public and tech, into blowing people. I
think to the magnificent Senior C/S Pedro Doria, whom I still remember
with love and gratefulness.
It's under him that I really began to audit with JOY.
He glowed ARC, playfulness and joy of living while C/Sing the whole
bridge (and my OT3)
But after the battle he was a rag and then he bleft (! nice typo).
Rightly in my view. I consider it insulting calling such right actions
And the "handling registrars skill" I had developed for captain Bill,
and increased in the meantime, was such that I was the only one (public
and staff) continuing my daily routine of happily solo auditing, whilst
others were falling like true casualties in a true battle (but the enemy
was not the society or the public, it was the inside suicidal push
camouflaged by thrust for survival; the implicit background - the shadow
- of that action).
(When knowing the laws of the polarities, one knows that by pushing too
strongly a pole you evoke certainly the exact counterpole - the old
"what you oppose you become". So it is evident that WANTING -it's force-
too strongly survival you get suicide.)
I was for sure an enemy to THAT line.
And I was going my own road which, then, was my beloved OT3.
Coming back to Captain Bill, what I heard later of him looked rather
crazy to me, just like I found crazy in LRH himself the dramatization of
the OT3 materials.
If you want something do not put too much force into it.
Actually if you manage not to put force, so much better.
I consider that I was right, by looking backwards at the issues of such
dramatizations for both of them.
And by looking at how that bridge ended in a "cul de sac". No immortal
thetans able to create immortal bodies and immortal memory: don't kid
yourselves, that was the mid path purpose towards becoming immortal gods.
We were just calling it OT.
The label on the clay demo changes, but the clay is the very same.
But that is my personal view.
Since I did ponder a lot about that piece of tech.
And this is another story.
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:08:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Pierre Ethier Class XII
Subject: Re: [IVy-subs-1] Re: William ( Bill ) Robertson
I first met Bill Robertson in 1977 at Flag. At the
time I was waiting on Executives and Officers in their
private Dining room.
A lot can be learned about character by waiting on
people. The lower tone (and more insane) individuals
would always be the ones giving most trouble in spite
of all efforts to please. Virtually all Senior execs
were easy to please. (I will go into the details in
another post or an article).
Bill was one of the easy people to deal with. He would
never complain and always grant me beingness in my
Plenty of junior officers were far more difficult to
please. Ironically, the most obnoxious characters I
met in the dining room back then are now the most
rabid and disrespectful people on
"ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY" screaming that they were
abused by Scientology (and of course attacking both
the Church and the Free Zone and calling both the very
same thing). Back then, these people had no problem
abusing me! In fact their very demeanor and admissions
today are that they made "no case gain"...
While Bill was a very decent individual, his wife Joan
was quite another story and she would frequently
Bill in spite of his Class VIII training from many
years earlier was one of the few Tech trained people
at Flag who was never put onto part time auditing in
1979-1980. At the time Flag was overhwelmed with such
an influx of public that LRH ordered "WITHOUT
EXCEPTION" per the issue that came out that every
single auditor at Flag, no matter where posted be made
to audit two hours a day (or two public people). The
only partial exception were people who did not feel up
to auditing public for technical reasons and they were
to be put on 2 1/2 hrs of retreads per day until they
could. This was the case for Bill.
Even the Commanding Officer of the Flag Bureau (Kerry
Gleeson) and the Commanding Officer of the FSO (Greg
Wilhere) both Class VIIIs were made to audit public.
These were among the most demanding and stressful
posts on the planet.
During that time I was put on a retread of my Academy
Levls at Flag, Bill and I were temporarily assigned as
twins in the staff course room. He was on a tech
retread of his Academy Levels himself.
He checked me out on a number of technical issues,
including the HCOB Styles of Auditing and the Laws of
It became evident that he knew study tech down cold,
but he was definitely on the rusty side as far as tech
goes. He had to first reread some of the bulletins he
checked me out on, because of that. This includes the
two bulletins I just mentioned.
During his spare time he was reading the R&D Volumes
and kept smiling and nodding (and apparently
cogniting) as he read them.
When in 1981 the new management took over, there was a
concerted effort by everyone of the old guard to
prevent it. Most high ranking auditors and Executives
were behind it and they saw Bill Robertson as someone
that would support them, due to his unquestionable
allegiance to LRH.
After his departure from Flag and subsequent declare,
his pc folders were culled for embarassing evidence
which could be used against him.
The FSO staff was subsequently "briefed" on these
specifics, and a "limited distribution" ethics order
was issued seeking to expose them with the greatest
amount of ridicule possible.
Who can honestly boast to never have done anything
embarassing or engaged in aberrant behaviour at one
point in their life, especially pre-Scientology?.
So I have always, and now more than ever found such a
practice to be entirely amoral.
I think it would serve no purpose in revealing the
details at this point, especially that these may very
have been completed handled through his auditing even
at the time the cull was made.
I have seen far worse things in many cases I have
studied, which include some of the current leading
personalities and executives of the church.
I was even told by people who actually read or culled
the folders about the details.
Needless to say, people of such low integrity as to
use the tech harmfully, by culling pc folders to give
ammunition to the Scientology War machine, have long
since abandoned auditing or C/Sing.
What they did is the exact equivalent of the Violation
of the Hippocratic Oath, by seeking to use the tech
harmfully against another.
Except for details coming from that "cull", in the 10
years, I worked at Flag after Bill was declared
suppressive by the Church, I have never heard anything
derogatory ever told agaisnt him by anyone, which is
not the case for a lot of other people who left around
the same time.
On the contrary, I have heard dozens of anecdotes of
people who worked directly with Bill or under him.
Each one of them can be summarized in that he was he
was doing his job as captain of the Flag Ship Org,
competently and effectively.
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:28:11 +0100
From: "Flemming ....
2007/2/19, Agnes Araujo <email@example.com>:
> Dear Pierre,
> You wrote: "No Class XII has ever endorsed
> Robertson's technical writings."
> Why not?
> It is my understanding that LRH passed on his hat to Captain Bill, and that
> he endorsed what CBR had discovered. I have read this data in the Ron's Org
> website which includes much of CBRs writings.
> If the information is a falsehood, why would CBR make the claims he did?
> Are all Class XIIs unanimous in their rejection of the CBR Bridge? And if
> so, why?
> Since I am somewhat still fresh on this scene, if the above questions have
> already been discussed, please direct me to the sources.
Pierre is probably wise to answer in private. I'm maybe less wise, but
I'll try to be diplomatic.
I'm not aware of any very highly trained oldtimers who support the CBR
bridge. I mean, at the level of ClassXIIs. There have been some
ClassVIIIs, some old-timers, but mostly it has been ClassIV auditors
from more recent times who've become the Ron's Org delivery terminals.
That the Class XIIs don't necessarily support Bill's version of a
bridge doesn't necessarily mean they all reject it. But it obviously
didn't really catch their interest, and I can well understand if they
have technical objections.
Bill wasn't a tech terminal in the church. He was a hell of a can-do
admin guy. LRH handed the tech hat to David Mayo. Bill and David Mayo
worked together at first, and the idea was that David would take care
of the tech side of things. But that didn't particularly work out.
Bill was in Europe, and there were people in need of tech, so he
started organizing things, getting delivery going. He was working with
Ulrich Kramer at that time. They started delivering NOTs, and they
discovered that really it could be improved a bit, and that became
Excalibur. And gradually Bill got into the role of developing more
tech levels. In part because nobody else was, and he felt that he was
just laying out the next logical thing to do. And he would always
insist that he simply applied standard tech to what was there. He
wouldn't really have seen it as that it was his levels, and he gave
credit to LRH at every chance he got.
So we can then argue about whether those levels are standard levels,
"like LRH would do them". No, I don't think they're like LRH would do
them. It is stuff Bill came up with. Most Ron's Org people would
disagree with me on that, though.
Bill didn't directly claim that LRH had handed the tech hat to him, as
far as I know. Rather, part of what he presented was various sector
operation bulletins and tech materials, in part in the form of
'telepathic telexes', some of which were presented as being from Ron,
and providing support for what Bill was doing.
Bill was a formidable person, but telepathy isn't a very reliable
thing for us humans, and session data isn't necessarily reliable. I've
gotten a number of telepathic communications I sort of am glad I
didn't go and act on, and I've remembered a lot of things in session I
think I'm going to refrain from spreading around. And, worse, if you
pass these things on to others from a position of authority, it can be
rather dicey. If it is session data, and you tell others what they'll
find, we're skirting the issue of evaluation. So, was it really Ron?
Is Bill really Deputy Sector Commander of Sector 9 of the galaxy? Was
Ron really Buddha? Are those things you're presented with really your
next level? I don't know, you'll have to decide those kinds of things
for yourself. But Bill didn't directly make any great claims, he just
passed on what he was pretty sure he received and perceived. And he
was quite humble about that, just sort of doing his job.
Put more bluntly, he channeled it. As LRH probably channeled a great
deal of what he said and wrote. There's no real proof that goes with
what they said. Other than that you can take it, and check it out for
yourself, and use it, and use the techniques and principles, and if
they work for you, it is at least a workable truth.
From Class_XII@... Thu Aug 19 14:49:39 2004
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:49:35 +0000
Subject: More about KSW
About Captain Bill,
I am not going to say as little as possible that may viewed as deragatory
about Captain Bill.
However there are many misconceptions as to who he was and what he was.
Captain Bill was in charge of Running the Ship. He was a Leader. He was NOT
a Management Person. He was NOT a Tech Person.
He did a splendid job at running the Ship. This means handling the sailing
aspect of it, the Ports, the supplies, food, and all physical aspects of
being a "Captain".
On the Ship there were three Senior Terminals:
For Tech Otto Roos
For Admin and Management Ken Urquardt
For the Ship Captain Bill Robertson.
If Captain Bill had been failing at his duties, it is Ken Urquardt who would
have been pulled down into handling it, but Captain Bill never failed.
When the the Flag land Base was formed, a squeletton crew headed by Captain
Bill remained on-board the Apollo until it was sold.
Returning to Flag, Captain Bill became a fish out of Water. He had no Remote
Management skills and was unwanted (and even despised) by most of the Church
Management (This is the Management prior to the RTC takeover).
In 1979-1980 there was such a demand for NOTS auditors because of the huge
inflow of public, that all sort of compromises were made to find auditors.
Even RPFers were taken out of the RPF to audit. Captain Bill was found so
rusty technically that he was told to go on a complete retread starting at
Level Zero. I know I saw the retread order and was told by the Cramm Off. To
my knowledge he never completed it.
I did twin up with Captain Bill around 1980 when I was on an Academy Level
Retread. He knew his Study Tech cold, but he was lost on Level IV Tech and
he even admitted to me he hadnt really audited in nearly 10 years.
His Class VIII status was largely Honorary. AS a Class IV, it became
abundantly clear to me at the time that my Technical skills (I was only a
Class IV) were superior to his.
Plus there is the fact that Captain Bill suffered from a Brain Tumour for
years (and eventuially died from it). Brain Tumour can make someone "Hear
voices" (CBR said he could hear LRH) or suffer from a number of distortions
Therefore, Captain Bill's writings should not be taken any differently than
other FZ people.
His writings are his own opinions and have perhaps some value, but they
certainly are not LRH's and should not be considered to be so.
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